Our special look into the Music Man of Eau Claire continues on episode two of Luginbilled! This week we look under the hood of a reverse engineered promotion campaign, and consider the long-term consequences in light of recent public statements. Cool & Unusual Punishment is a member of the Nerd & Tie Network! Find more shows from N&T at their website in the show notes.
AAE Speakers profile
Social Media Profiles
Youtube video traffic statistics
Celebrity Profile Websites
Joe Luginbill public statement
Kerry Kincaid statement
Jodie: Before we get started tonight, I had received a request from somebody to run a quick correction. I wanted the listeners to know that “Azara Properties is not a smoke and vape shop. It is owned by Hash La Moon Investment Group, and we do also own Azara's. But we also own several other businesses.”
So I let them know I'd run that correction. And before we dive into some of the digging we've done on Joe's social media presence to a greater extent--We received a statement from Kerry Kincaid, whom we mentioned at the end of the first episode in regards to a letter that allegedly had been sent to her in some fashion from Joe Luginbill, encouraging her to resign as president of the Eau Claire City Council. So I'm going to have Tyler read that.
Tyler: “Here's my written response. If Joe Luginbill or anyone else is telling people he caused me to resign from City Council, it is not true. I did not and have never received a threat from him in any form. I resigned because the 2018 local election ushered in an approach to local governance I did not respect and did not think would be good for the city, but one that voters signaled they preferred. As I said in my press release of the time a lady always knows when it's time to leave the party.”
She asked us to provide her statement in response to our last episode.
Jodie: And there it is. So I'm not going to linger on this too much. I wanted to let the listeners know that number one, I did chat with Andrew Werthman over the weekend. I'm sure Andrew already has fielded enough questions in regards to this issue, as well as all kinds of city government issues as of late. So if you feel the need to get further clarification from Andrew, I'm sure he will do that. However, I wanted to let the listeners know that he and I did have a chat, and we discussed this alleged letter that Joe Luginbill had told several important people in Eau Claire existed, and something that he had done, and Andrew shared with me that he had no knowledge of Joe doing such a thing at the time that it was done.
I feel comfortable sharing on his behalf that he indicated that. I feel quite strongly that they were being truthful with me, that this alleged situation had occurred. Whether or not Joe was being truthful with them is another situation. Pursuing that topic any further, I feel, is something that should be done by somebody in a higher pay grade than me.
Joe [recorded]: “But she said, ‘you know, it's very admirable that you're doing this,’ and I mean that coming from Martha Stewart, was a pretty big deal for me.”
“So after she came back from prison, her ratings went up. She definitely is someone that is a PR poster child, I think.”
Jodie: You are listening to cool and unusual punishment. This is Luginbilled, focusing on the Music Man of Eau Claire, Joe Luginbill. Let's chat about some of the interesting stuff we've been looking at over the past few nights.
Tyler: I don't know many episodes we're gonna do, but I feel like what the series is probably going thio consist of, is stories we wanna consider and look into, and also we want to tell this the story of how he, you know, kind of came to be the man he is.
Jodie: The stories that we have written on Post-its on our corkboard are stories that are going to take some time to solidly report on. When we thought about doing this series, and as we have been reporting on it, getting things correct and having evidence to back it up is very important. I feel, um, very proud of the research that we've done, and the sources we have to back it up, which you can always find in the show notes. So please continue.
Tyler: I think I kind of posed this as an open question in the first episode, because we were talking about his YouTube channel, these food videos. And then his bios seemed to change over the course of a few years to a man who is looking to get into politics. And I think I had asked you “what is the path from A to B?” Because it seems like a big jump. So we've been kind of, last couple of days, looking into some of the places he was planting flags around the Internet. in in this self promotion campaign, to turn Joe Luginbill into public Joe Luginbill. So I want to start with this YouTube page.
There was of course, this video that had a million views. There's a different video before that that, well, it didn't have a million views, but it did have 270,000. It is not a small number.
Certainly, so this first video of the, looking at a breakdown of the traffic flowing to this video, the dates and the places they came from. There's places you expect. This was in late July of 2012 Twitter, a couple hundred, Facebook, a couple hundred, people searching Joe's Kitchen on YouTube, a couple 100--and then, in July 28 2012, VK dot com sent 36,000 people to this video.
Jodie: And what's what's VK dot com?
Tyler: So VK dot com is a Russian online social media website. Um, it is quietly, like the fifth largest site on the Internet. As of August 2019, VK dot com is ranked 19th on the list of Alexa's top 500 websites.
Tyler: It is-- Officially, it is a, like, European, I think, East European social networking site, predominantly used by Russians, and it is very, very big.
Tyler: As of August 2018, VK had at least 500 million accounts. It is the most popular website in Russia.
Jodie: How does that happen? The video was embedded there, right, like there was a link put there. Which would then make me think that Joe, or a bot, or somebody had a profile on there to embed it.
Tyler: I don't know. I can't, I can't--There's some things I can't say for sure, whether these are organic views, genuine people and what's a bot. There's some evidence that will get into. But in any case, it is notable that the majority of the views that pushed this up-- views that pushed this video into a higher plane-- was from a Russian Facebook, essentially.
Jodie: Like, why would that many people organically click on the view of, of somebody from Eau Claire, Wisconsin? What was the name of that video? Did it say? What was he making?
Tyler: This most likely would have been “Joe's Kitchen five minute meal.”
Now the second video is called “A French Feast.” This is the one that, if you've read any biography of his over the last five or six years, it will mention it. Um, it got a million views. We mentioned it on the first episode. This was the one that-
Jodie: He allegedly tweeted to some sort of Julia child birthday Twitter.
Tyler: And I can't speak to what his subscriber count was at the time. Traffic stats for this video are in August of 2012, 60,000-ish views from Mobile devices, and then August 21st 2012, referrals from Twitter: 973,000.
Jodie: We talked in the first episode how, I was unable to find where he was retweeted from the Julia Child Twitter page. Which I think it's important to reiterate again, that that was some sort of a Julia child birthday Twitter, that had less than 1500 followers. But I find it interesting that the claim to fame lied in this retweet from this Twitter page. It appears as though, if you were not organically getting views for your videos, it would be convenient to mention a quote, brush with fame and credit that and then seek out alternative ways to get those views. Because I think what is also important to note with these two videos that you've mentioned, you see the graph which we will share, and there is a huge spike and then a flat line. It's like somebody runs a marathon once in their life, and then never does it again.
Tyler: Yeah, it appears as though this video and subsequent videos didn't continue to be entertaining beyond the rush of a single day. I just wanna be fair, because I can't, I would love to have a conclusive answer as to the service that was used--if these views were, you know, purchased-- uh, and I can't. But I can't say that there was a rush of traffic to older an video from a Russian Facebook. And there's also a number of questionable, at best, uh, YouTube accounts that were very supportive of Joe Luginbill around the time, and I want to talk about some of them.
Jodie: Around the time these videos appeared back in 2012, there were accounts that were coincidentally created around the same periods of time, and had very little activity outside the job of commenting on his videos.
Tyler: So as an example, there's an account and comment from 2012, from an Andrea Brant, a person who joined YouTube September 26, 2012, to subscribe to Joe and post one comment and never do anything again. After that, this was a comment on the video “Joe's Kitchen with special guest Barack Obama.” Her comment was, “I hope Obama actually sees this. Maybe he'll invite you to the White House.”
Jodie: I want to also clarify that all of these accounts that we're talking about, now, are not found.
Tyler: Meredith Jackson commented, “Just saw you on the news, on TV, and in the newspaper. You had your own features in both! Rooting for you, can't wait to see you on the Food Network or PBS.” Mary Jackson commented, “You truly are going to be the next celebrity chef. I can see it already. You have such a winning attitude, and your cooking skills are well beyond your years. Keep up the awesome work.” Meredith Jackson was also a Facebook account at the time. They had no activity except for liking Joe Luginbill. Meredith Jackson was also a Google Plus account at the same time, that joined July 30th 2012, and whose latest activity was September 26th 2012.
Jodie: A flash in the pan commenter.
Tyler: An account, Michele Matheson, comments on Joe's Kitchen, “another awesome video!” on a second “Joe's Kitchen,”-- “Excellent video.” Michele Matheson joined September 17 2012. Latest activity, October 2nd, 2012. Milly Tomlinson, an account on Facebook that existed briefly for seven days to make a post that says “Wow wow, wow, Go Joe!” and tags Joe Luginbill with the Ranker poll that we talked about in the first episode.
Jodie: The one with 280 votes--
Jodie: That she somehow knew about.
Tyler: So Milly Tomlinson is a different sort-- Is supporting Joe in a different way. And that's to comment on other YouTube videos. Mostly music videos by 2Chainz, Carly Rae Jepson, to make the same comment over and over. And it reads, “This is a great video. Want to see an up and coming celeb? I'm a big fan already. Search Joe Luginbill in the search bar.”
Jodie: That's a good friend.
Tyler: A Phil Riley. “Oh, did I mention that I tried this recipe tonight? Here's a household hit. Wife loved it and so did I. It was a win. Thank you.” Chef Joe Phil Riley joined July 30, 2012. Last activity was September 27, 2012. These comments, like from Meredith Jackson say things like, “I won't be surprised when this is a YouTube hit. It was awesome, Joe.”
Jodie: It’s all these things, steering towards--
Tyler: Not just the content of the video, but a declaration of recognition that he deserves and doesn't have yet.
Jodie: Like, let me let me have a bunch of accounts make comments and something that I want to be so.
Tyler: So in the same vein, there was a Twitter account around September of 2012 @JohnsonDahlia, a woman who had 27 tweets and almost all of them, if not all of them, are tweets at and about Joe Luginbill.
“Starbucks. You might wanna share them with your followers. A barista with viral video cooking shows @JosephLuginbill.”
Jodie: Oh, and some of these are also tagging famous people along with Joe.
Tyler: @WEAU13 news, “news tip for you, Joe Luginbill has over two million hits now, and he's on the front page of Cooking Teens Magazine Today.”
“@ECASDsuper, You should be proud and share this to Twitter and Facebook!”
Tweets at people like Martha Stewart, and Joe Biden, and Justin Bieber. Just a huge fan of Joe Luginbil.
“Joe Luginbill is a viral hit and on the cover of Cooking Teen today.”
Jodie: Cooking Teen. Can I address that quickly?
Tyler: Yes, please. Because I looked for it, and-
Jodie: As far as I know there was perhaps, if it was like a digital type magazine, his link, might have been featured somewhere. But again, it's been difficult to find any physical evidence of that.
Tyler: I wanna talk about Joe Luginbill’s Wikipedia, because it also has its own kind of interesting path. You can't find it now. It has been deleted. An archived Web page from 2012 lists Joe Luginbill as an Internet businessman, Internet and radio personality, and TV chef, “he is the host of his Web cooking show, Joe's Kitchen, and a radio show of the same name on Los Angeles talk radio.”
So these people who tend to, review and make edits and flag things for deletion on Wikipedia, They are the sort of people you would expect. They're very smart, and they're very matter-of-fact. And because they’re the kind of people like that, they have a unique ability to be both emotionally detached, and therefore incredibly savage, and you'll see what I mean.
This first Wikipedia article on Joe Luginbill in 2012 was flagged for deletion. The person who first flagged this wrote “subject doesn't appear to be sufficiently notable. What I could find in the secondary sources is that he is part of a high school jazz band and a student representative at the school. I have been unable to find any other relevant secondary sources. Joe's Kitchen-”
He's referencing the YouTube page-
“-is about a week old and consists of two videos, so it seems unlikely to be notable as well.”
And then there is a response to this comment. There's a bit of a back and forth, like other smart people debating, you know, the nuances of whether or not it should stay. Somebody responds, and they vote to keep it. And it reads, “The sources in the article show that he has almost half a million followers online. I think that would qualify him as an Internet personality.”
There's response to that comment that reads, “Which source shows that exactly? From what I can see, he has around 20,000 Twitter followers and around 600 followers on YouTube, far from half a million.” The following comment, a vote for delete: “There's no indication of notability of this individual. None of the sources meet required standards as reliable. I see no significant coverage about the subject. There's quotes from him and mentions of him in local media related to the band. But that falls well short of significant coverage. It does not appear that the Tribune article is significant coverage. The rest of the sourcing is unreliable sources. My own searches turn up nothing better in the way of sourcing.”
Jodie: Band refers to like a high school band of some kind?
Tyler: Yes, a high school jazz band.
Okay, so you might notice there was one, there was one “yea” vote in these comments, and the vote for keeping it was not made by a user. It was made by a unregistered user, I assume, because what it provides is a IP address instead. And if you follow that IP address, if you look it up, it turns back an address in Colorado. The connection is Charter Communications. The name off the connection is Eau Claire, Wisconsin.
Jodie: Okay, so this is somebody-
Tyler: Presented without comment. But somebody in Eau Claire really thinks that should qualify him as an internet personality.
So that page gets deleted. One year later in June of 2013, this happens again.
Jodie: Oh boy.
Tyler: The Wikipedia article has been relisted. It's a little different, a little more considered as to the claims it's making, but it has, once again, been flagged for review and deletion. The person who flags it says this, “The references given, one of which is repeated under three different URLs, doesn't appear to me to establish notability, and the article doesn't really explain why he should have an article.”
Under this, a comment reply that votes to keep, “Without having to dig, one can easily find sources of Luginbill. If the URLs are an issue, you can certainly ask some of us who are based in Western Wisconsin near him. He hosts a radio talk show with relatively high ratings on the East Coast as well, definitely passes for notability.”
Tyler: Somebody follows up. “Lack of significant coverage, and development editor may be more interested in promoting his hometown.”
A follow up to that by a different user. A vote to keep. “I was one of the first people to work on this page, I primarily work on YouTube personality pages. He was added to Wikipedia when his YouTube videos started receiving millions of views, and his channel was featured on the front page of YouTube. During that time period, his content was shared on many media outlets. In my opinion, he meets the criteria for a notable public figure. It's made by a user named DrewJ1980. His Wikipedia bio lists him as living in Ontario, Canada, where he is mostly on Wikipedia “To curate/maintain YouTube personality pages.” You will find that he almost exclusively maintains Joe Luginbill’s Wikipedia page.
Tyler: So that Wikipedia page gets deleted and then, not to be dissuaded, a third Wikipedia article on Joe Luginbill rises up another year later, in 2014.
Jodie: Oh my gosh.
Tyler: They seem to be losing their patience. The guy who flags it for review says this, “Joe Luginbill is non notable. A number of Wikipedia accounts have been created by Joe Luginbill, himself a completely non notable young man who's engaged in self promotion. Wikipedia is not for that purpose.”
We also looked into a spread of Joe Luginbill, kind of, presence on the Internet. Specifically, um, sites where you can hire a celebrity chef. He is listed, uh, for public speaking--
Jodie: Still. Five to ten thousand dollars.
Tyler: -And his rate is 5 to $10,000. We found two celebrity net worth pages. One is called the riches dot com.
Jodie: Yeah, quite a few listeners sent that to me.
Tyler: And one, celebrity-grams dot com, that lists-- both list him as with a net worth of 2.5 million. It is probably worth remarking that celebrity-grams, when you spread out a little farther on that site, what you find is, it's not a well styled site, and it has two main topics. One is celebrity net worth, and the other celebrity boobs.
Tyler: They are sites that invite user created and maintained profiles. And they all have similar bios, depending on what year it was. They all mention his Luginbill Omnimedia company. Which, we found no presence online at all, except for a Facebook page with a couple dozen likes.
Jodie: No other mention of note, other than Joe talking about--
Tyler: He lists himself as president and CEO of it.
The other two things I wanted to mention was, radio talk shows. The importance of these talk shows kind of vary depending on what bio you're reading or what news article. But they're often mentioned as an incredible offer from an East Coast radio station to host his own show. They were Joe's Kitchen on L. A. Talk Radio, and Joe's Kitchen would become, according to this bios, at least would become the Joe Luginbill Show. That was in 2012, I think maybe before the YouTube videos, and then, in 2014, a East Coast radio show called The Joe Luginbill Show, where I think that's where he was not talking about cooking anymore, it was more of a political/current events-- I don't know, because I've never I've never heard or found any of these.
Jodie: What was the name of the L. A. It's L.A. Talk Radio?
Tyler: L.A. talk radio.
Jodie: You go to the website, and it reminds me a bit of like, a community television version of radio and podcasting, where there's a link at the top that's has “become a host.” The vetting process is you wanting to be part of it. This isn't like the Howard Stern Show or or something like that, where you are sought out. A search of their site pulls up no mention of him, and so I'm not certain if that ever existed. And if it did, the format of that stream is not one of, “Hey, we heard about this kid in Eau Claire.” I reached out, I have not heard back, asking if Joe Luginbill did, in fact, ever have a radio program on there. So-
Tyler: We also heard about this East Coast radio station, and we were like, “Is this something different?”
We found that one, too. That one's a blog talk radio show called “The Joe Luginbill Show.” It is essentially the same service. I believe that one was the, more of a call in style, like, it has a service that allows people to call in, and again, that page-- the archive of that page still exists.
But I don't... I've never found any of these episodes. I don't know how long he did them for, and I don't know how popular they were. I think they are referenced as being wildly popular, and I don't want to dismiss that outright, but I can't find any proof of their existence. I don't think it's, uh, deserving of mockery to have an Internet podcast, obviously, or to be on like, an internet radio show. What seems notable about them is that they are, oftentimes, the second thing mentioned in his bios. They are good examples of how you can massage the things you do into something bigger.
Jodie: IT was enough to get him on WEAU.
Tyler: So, yeah, that's kind of where I'm headed with is, uh, the reason I think all this is important to talk about-- the stuff that I find the most fascinating about it is, I empathize with anybody trying to self promote, as someone who has creative projects and is also unknown, it is very difficult to get the things you're doing that you're very proud of, out in front of people--
Jodie: Except for--can I just interject?
Jodie: That you, and scores of others, are actually doing things.
Tyler: Yes, there's that, too. That most of the time, the way it works is, you have a thing, and you hope that if you work on it hard enough and long enough, you will find recognition and validation for it. Whereas this appears to be reverse engineering fame for having done something that seems to be centered around this YouTube video and very little else, because the cooking videos stop very shortly after that. And it becomes aggressive marketing of himself as somebody who is known everywhere.
I described it to you as beaver behavior. Um, he is building dams to reach more trees so that he can build more dams, like, it's a snake eating its own tail of promotion, that it's not in service of anything except the ability to promote yourself more and-
Tyler: The other thing I want to specifically say is that, I don't think it's accurate to describe all this as self promotion. Specifically because we've gone over a number of fake accounts that definitely are not just bots, because they are personally plugging Joe's work, Wikipedia pages and defenses of those pages made by people who are not named Joe Luginbill.
Everything you find about Joe Luginbill online, you get the sense It's written by Joe Luginbill, but it's in the third person. They speak of a man named Joe Luginbill and use lofty language to describe his company, his multifaceted media company, that he’s CEO of, his hit radio program--
I don't, I can't speak objectively, but it feels disingenuous. It feels like a calculated move to not wanna look like you're promoting yourself. So instead you pretend everyone else's promoting you. There's not that much when you go down to the root. I don't know what's being promoted except that this guy is really great, and doing stuff. In the interest of fairness. I do think we should mention the one article that I can't--that seems to not fall into this category.
Jodie: Yes, the article, in which, I again have reached out to the author of, with curiosity as to how they went about running it.
Tyler: The article is from adweek dot com. It opens, “We should all be so lucky as to have had, at age 18, a calling card as impressive as this. Meet Joe Luginbill, CEO of Luginbill Omnimedia.”
And it goes into all the stuff we talked about. But it seems to be the one of the only articles outside of local news that is definitely written by a real person, and is hard to pin down because it exists in a sea of self third person promotion.
The YouTube video that got a million views, it got leveraged a lot, and I don't know why, because the YouTube video stopped shortly after, and it seemed like the thing that was his jumping pad got abandoned very quickly, and I don't know why.
Jodie: Yeah, and I will speak to that-- as somebody who has heard from several people who, at some point, had considered themselves good friends of Joe's. What I will say that I heard many, many times over the past few weeks, is that there is a common thread of behavior in which there is a project that is started or teased--
Tyler: Announced, big things coming.
Jodie: Announced. And then there isn't follow through on it. That is definitely something that's symptomatic of his personality. Over time people I spoke with that referenced talk of him becoming the new Mr Rogers of, like, Wisconsin Public Television, and writing a Children's book in which there was a person who illustrated that, who didn't get paid for it, which is another whole episode of people who didn't get paid for work. That's a different thing. But it's always these ideas that spin and, “where do I go next?” and “what do I do next?”
But then, it appears that, once it gets down to the amount of work required-- as somebody who is a creative person myself, I know the idea of when I got my Masters and decided it was going to be in creative writing, and then I settled on writing a play--that sounds great, and then you actually have to do the thing, and that requires an incredible of amount of work and discipline. And it appears when you look at the trajectory from people who consider themselves very good friends of his, that there would be these initiatives, whether they be creative or the smile house, which we can speak to at a different time, which was going to serve as a home for kids who were transitioning out of the foster care system at 18.
All of these things that were great ideas and they sounded good--
Tyler: And he was not a guy with no like--I think it's referenced objectively by third parties that he had 20, 30,000 Twitter followers. He was not a nobody, certainly.
Jodie: Yeah, he was not a nobody, and he certainly--
Tyler: Which makes his behavior very strange, because they speak to somebody who has nothing and wants to trick people. But he did have an internet presence, and I don't know--
Jodie: How much of that is authentic versus how much of that--
Tyler: I honestly didn't think of that. Yeah, given everything else, I don't know why I didn't consider that.
Jodie: Yeah, how much of that is authentic? The amount of momentum that an inauthentic internet presence produced-- becoming the school board president at age 24, with no college education.
Tyler: Yeah, everything I talked about, I think, it leads up to around 2014, 2015, where there is a more recent Leader Telegram article at the time, that interviews him, and at the end of it there's a quote from him that kind of mentions, like, looking forward, like maybe politics--
Jodie: And then looking forward, 2016, the Eau Claire School Board. The creation of the Luginbill Children's Foundation, which, what we are forgetting is that some listeners may not realize, that now that foundation is under scrutiny by the Eau Claire police department. But that's when there's a transition, and beginning in 2016, it's a very distinct other path, which we will focus on in the future show.
Tyler: Most of the people listening probably know this, but we recorded the first episode-- at the time when we recorded it, Joe Luginbill was still unaccounted for, and I think the day after, is when he re-emerged to make a public statement.
Jodie: Joe Luginbill made a statement, and I'd like to read it.
“I feel it is important to make a statement to the media at this time. I know that my absence has led to many questions, and I regret how it has left people in the dark. The truth is that for a period of several months I have been completely overwhelmed. I held onto unealistic hopes of a Hail Mary that would support the success of two daunting projects, the State Theater, and the Smile House, as well as other programs and initiatives. I worked on these projects and others without receiving any salary and without employees. Despite this and despite public support and encouragement, the level of donations simply did not keep up with the costs associated with operations. More than anything, I was in denial. I was in denial to believe that I would be able to see the success of these projects on my own. I was in denial as bills added up, and as more and more responsibilities were shifted to me, it is hard to cope with the fact that this has led people and causes I care about deeply to be disappointed and hurt. I want to apologize for retreating during this time of challenge and for not being in communication with the people I work closely with.
In many ways I kept people in the dark about the difficulties I have been going through. In the coming weeks and months, I will work to make amends with the programs which I care about so dearly. Because I no longer am equipped to manage these programs with myself, I will be passing them on to other entities and organizations that can see them through. For that reason, I am in the process of dissolving my foundation. At this time. I'm also pursuing treatment for mental illness. In many ways, my mental illness has been debilitating for me. It has been a root cause for the challenges I'm currently facing. I've put off seeking treatment for a very long time and feel it is vital that I receive it now. I want to thank those who sent messages of love and support during this time, their understanding means so much to me, as does the support of my family and loved ones. I've lived in the public eye since I was 18 years old, and I have devoted my entire life to adult life to public service. I have also tried to do what I feel is in the best interest of causes and programs I support.
For the same reason, at this time I'm retreating from the public life which I've cultivated to this point.”
-I would agree he has cultivated it.
“Through everything. I'm holding onto my belief that there is a power greater than me and greater than any of us. I trust that force to guide me forward into the future. This will be my only statement at this time.”
Tyler: Yeah, anybody who's been in an abusive relationship can recognize what is happening in that statement, either intentionally or unintentionally. The things you're saying can be true, and also it can be wildly inappropriate for him. To leverage them in that way.
Jodie: Yes. I sat over the weekend, and I spoke to more than one person that would consider themselves a good friend, at some point, in the past years, of Joe Luginbill, and all of those people are like grieving the loss of somebody they never knew to begin with, but thought they did. I don't know how this guy can abandon this thing because he is hard-wired to be his own hype man to his own fault, you know.
I want to thank everybody for listening. We certainly have more to come. But stay tuned. Perhaps there are more scandals left to timeline. Thanks for listening.
Tyler: Luginbilled is presented by cool and unusual punishment. Research and fact checking by Jodiei Arnold. This episode was edited and mixed by me, Tyler Haas. Music by Rick Dickert and AGMusic. Our website, where you can listen to all our episodes, and find links to the material and documents we reference, is cool and unusual punishment dot com.